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Dec 9 11 11:34 PM
That brat is your bud
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Dec 10 11 9:12 AM
Channel Gran
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Dec 10 11 5:53 PM
Only Human
Dec 10 11 6:12 PM
Dec 10 11 6:40 PM
Dartmistress wrote: I am surprised, Francois, at what you say about the Josephus manuscripts. There are many scholars who still use him for reference.
The big problem with such old documents is that we must just guess. Is it a forgery by the anti-christians or are the claims of forgery another ploy by the pro-christians?
Dec 11 11 10:55 AM
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Dec 11 11 11:17 AM
Dec 11 11 6:06 PM
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Dec 12 11 6:13 AM
Ms. Agreeable
Dec 12 11 10:42 AM
Dartmistress wrote: But isn't that true of all the documents? Bits were added and bits - including whole books - were missed out, when The Bible as we know it today was compiled. The only parts which were used were the parts that fitted in with the belief system as the church authorities wanted it. What has always puzzled me is why either Jesus or one of his followers didn't write things down at the time. Could you remember second or third hand information, and would you pass it off as verbatum conversation? I would like to know what is written in all the unpublished manuscripts that have been squirreled away by the vatican.
You have picked on the work of Josephus, but this is only a small part of the man's research. Most of the book is based on the bible, with the references included. I find it difficult to believe that a man in Tabor's position, who had spent more than 25 years studying such texts, would jeopardize his reputation by basing his work on obvious untruths.
So, we look at Eustabius. Actually, there is quite a lot of information that refers to Jesus in the documents of Josephus. If Eustabius was a priest, working for the church, why would he include statements that contradicted what is accepted as truth in the bible? As an educated man, forging a document, surely he would copy the style of the original writer, not make it glaringly obvious by writing in his own style. It all sounds a bit suspicious to me.
Anyway, as I said earlier, it has made Jesus the man much more believable. If you can get a copy, I would recommend it as an interesting read.
Dec 12 11 10:49 AM
Propaganster wrote: As you also point to, neither Jesus or one of his followers wrote anything down during the lifetime of Jesus, which some would see as evidence that he may not have existed.
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Dec 12 11 10:55 AM
Laura wrote: I am no bible scholar, nor any other religious texts, but I do believe that Jesus, the man, existed, as well as John the Baptist. The records are dubious, but clearly do agree that the man existed, whether or not he was the holy of holys or not.
I don’t know how children stories start in other cultures, but in my culture children stories starts always with “if it hadn’t existed, this story would be untold”. I do believe that a Jesus existed, and not only one but several. “Jesus” name was relatively common name, it was actually Yeshua or Joshua, and you can ask anyone who lives in those places where the story stared.
Later on, Latin form of Greek “Iesous” became “Jesus” of English language. In my language it is “Isus”. Also *later on*, the Greek and Latin composers of disparate books describing what they heard from others about one of many Jesii, added something to “personalize” their Jesus. In the time of “Jesus”, there were a lot of others celebrity Jesus:
- Jesus ben Sirach. This Jesus was reputedly the author of the Book of Sirach (aka 'Ecclesiasticus, or the Wisdom of Jesus the Son of Sirach'), part of Old Testament Apocrypha. Ben Sirach, writing in Greek about 180 BC, brought together Jewish 'wisdom' and Homeric-style heroes.
- Jesus ben Pandira. A wonder-worker during the reign of Alexander Jannaeus (106-79 BC), one of the most ruthless of the Maccabean kings. Imprudently, this Jesus launched into a career of end-time prophecy and agitation which upset the king. He met his own premature end-time by being hung on a tree – and on the eve of a Passover. Scholars have speculated this Jesus founded the Essene sect.
- Jesus ben Ananias. Beginning in 62AD, this Jesus had caused disquiet in Jerusalem with a non-stop doom-laden mantra of ‘Woe to the city’. He prophesied rather vaguely:
"A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against the whole people."– Josephus, Wars 6.3. Arrested and flogged by the Romans, Jesus ben Ananias was released as nothing more dangerous than a mad man. He died during the siege of Jerusalem from a rock hurled by a Roman catapult.
- Jesus ben Saphat. In the insurrection of 68AD that wrought havoc in Galilee, this Jesus had led the rebels in Tiberias ("the leader of a seditious tumult of mariners and poor people" – Josephus, Life 12.66). When the city was about to fall to Vespasian’s legionaries he fled north to Tarichea on the Sea of Galilee.
- Jesus ben Gamala. During 68/69 AD this Jesus was a leader of the ‘peace party’ in the civil war wrecking Judaea. From the walls of Jerusalem he had remonstrated with the besieging Idumeans (led by ‘James and John, sons of Susa’). It did him no good. When the Idumeans breached the walls he was put to death and his body thrown to the dogs and carrion birds.
- Jesus ben Thebuth. A priest who, in the final capitulation of the upper city in 69AD, saved his own skin by surrendering the treasures of the Temple, which included two holy candlesticks, goblets of pure gold, sacred curtains and robes of the high priests. The booty figured prominently in the Triumph held for Vespasian and his son Titus.
.
Our “Jesus” is Christ… therefore we celebrate Christmas. Our Jesus is true because his followers were persecuted… Well, not a solid proof to believe that “he is true”… after all an idea is not necessarily true because someone died for it. Some “true” Muslims are blowing themselves up making other Muslims to believe that Allah is true… hmm…
About the fact that documents that were written well after the Jesus event happened, were destroyed… maybe that is a solid proof of Jesus Christ existence.
Anyway, the point is that Christmas is beautiful. Lights, Music, food, children getting gifts, adults getting to shop… Merry Christmas! God bless you all and everyone!
Let’s see the good parts of it, you skeptical skeptics… After all that, we go back to our “normal” lives until next Christmas! We have something to hope for.
Dec 12 11 10:56 AM
Alvida wrote: Propaganster wrote: As you also point to, neither Jesus or one of his followers wrote anything down during the lifetime of Jesus, which some would see as evidence that he may not have existed. So we are led to believe. All I will say is that none appear to exist, I won't say that none were written.
Dec 12 11 10:59 AM
Dec 12 11 11:12 AM
Alvida wrote: I'm not saying they do still exist, more that they were destroyed, and maybe little was written in any case because it was forbidden.
Dec 12 11 11:51 AM
Dec 12 11 2:37 PM
Propaganster wrote: Every single document making reference to Jesus which would be contemporany to his life would have been destroyed? Every single one? I find that a bit hard to believe. They obviously did not destroy every copy of the apostles, but if they could destroy every contemporany account, it was also surely within their power to do so?
Dec 12 11 4:04 PM
Alvida wrote: Propaganster wrote: Every single document making reference to Jesus which would be contemporany to his life would have been destroyed? Every single one? I find that a bit hard to believe. They obviously did not destroy every copy of the apostles, but if they could destroy every contemporany account, it was also surely within their power to do so? Or there wasn't much written to begin with.
I don't think prohibiting or destroying texts would have been beyond powerful people.
Obviously, going by my theory, there came a point where it was acceptable to write about Jesus, but maybe not much, hence so little. If the absence of contemporary documentation suggests Jesus didn't exist then couldn't it just as easily be asked if Jesus was a fabrication or composite why isn't there contemporary documentation? There are no limitations on what you make up afterall. The absence of anything suggests more to me that writings were destroyed and/or prohibited.
Dec 12 11 4:06 PM
valdobiade wrote:Laura wrote: I am no bible scholar, nor any other religious texts, but I do believe that Jesus, the man, existed, as well as John the Baptist. The records are dubious, but clearly do agree that the man existed, whether or not he was the holy of holys or not.Anyway, the point is that Christmas is beautiful. Lights, Music, food, children getting gifts, adults getting to shop… Merry Christmas! God bless you all and everyone! Let’s see the good parts of it, you skeptical skeptics… After all that, we go back to our “normal” lives until next Christmas! We have something to hope for.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks for taking the time to 'educate' me, Valdo. I am not totally unaware of the other Jesus' - and I certainly know it was a common name, sometimes spelled or pronounced differently. There were also a lot of Josephs and Marys. Even the apostles' names were /are popular.I don't have anything against people celebrating Christmas, whether as a celebration of the one they call their Lord, or simply as a winter celebration of family, hearth, home, charity and love.We pagans have a nearly identical form of celebration, called Yule, on the Solstice nght (the shortest day of the year) in which we leave candles burning all night long, and celebrate the "coming of the sun".Although I thnk it is nothing to do with Christmas on this thread, I do wish you all a wonderful time, however you spend it.
Let’s see the good parts of it, you skeptical skeptics… After all that, we go back to our “normal” lives until next Christmas! We have something to hope for.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks for taking the time to 'educate' me, Valdo. I am not totally unaware of the other Jesus' - and I certainly know it was a common name, sometimes spelled or pronounced differently. There were also a lot of Josephs and Marys. Even the apostles' names were /are popular.I don't have anything against people celebrating Christmas, whether as a celebration of the one they call their Lord, or simply as a winter celebration of family, hearth, home, charity and love.We pagans have a nearly identical form of celebration, called Yule, on the Solstice nght (the shortest day of the year) in which we leave candles burning all night long, and celebrate the "coming of the sun".Although I thnk it is nothing to do with Christmas on this thread, I do wish you all a wonderful time, however you spend it.
Dec 12 11 5:57 PM
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