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Posts: 548
May 12 11 5:50 PM
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May 12 11 6:05 PM
Only Human
Ivyy wrote: Why can't we start there...and discuss not for the sake of argument, but in the interest of a mutual fulfilling dialogue?
May 12 11 6:14 PM
dg wrote: Ivyy:I can't comprehend the existence of anything without a creator.A favorite argument of athiests is the question: If there is a creator, who created the creator? This is indeed a very good question; but athiests then lose the high ground when they try to account for our physical reality as something that either always existed (the "steady state universe" theory) or something that resulted from an unseen higher universe process ("big bang" via colliding "multiverses" theory). Clearly, if the universe can have always existed, so can a creator have always existed. And obviously if the universe can have resulted from some higher unseen multiverse conglomeration, it could just as easily have resulted from some unseen creator.
May 12 11 6:21 PM
May 12 11 6:24 PM
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May 12 11 6:40 PM
dg wrote: #63I don't think you made any point that I didn't already make, did you? Clearly if Y is like X, it follows that X is like Y.
May 12 11 6:45 PM
May 12 11 6:55 PM
dg wrote: Besides, scientists currently believe the universe is something like 18 billion years old. A long time, yes; but clearly not an eternity.
May 12 11 7:19 PM
May 12 11 7:22 PM
May 12 11 8:12 PM
dg wrote: "So if my logic "sucks" then why do you offer only a quote that does not address this point directly?"I followed it up with post #68. Show me a physical universe infinity
You have tried to unite a hypothetical mathematical abstraction with a so called physical reality in order to deduce a physical reality conclusion.
I used deflection tactics in an attempt to avoid counter arguing the point.
According to Albert Einstein, all matter is in "reality" slowed down energy. That btw is the meaning of his famous equation E = mc^2.
Infinity is a math concept. Perhaps it should stay there
May 13 11 4:13 PM
May 13 11 7:40 PM
dg wrote: Infinity is only a math concept.
It is the defined limit of a forever increasing function. It is not excluded in any way. It is especially important in limit functions and in series equations. Eternity, on the other hand, is a philosophical concept. Its meaning is to suggest no end to time.
I am well aware that you were arguing against an infinite age universe; but you did attempt a logical deduction using it. Yet the flaw of your deduction is precisely that if you claim the present to be real, you must then concede that you got to that point somehow, regardless of how old the universe actually is. An eternal past does not preclude the present; nor would it preclude an eternal future.
Per my perspective you have the mass/energy thing backwards. Everything is made of energy in space time. In special circumstances where energy is slowed such that most of its velocity is in the time dimension (versus the three space dimensions), we arrive at what we refer to as "matter." According to relativity theory, all that exists is energy and everything travels at the speed of light in the combined 4 dimensional space time of our universe. I'm not picking at straws; you will find this in any modern physics book that deals with relativity and string theory.
IMHO, your most recent post sure looks a lot like debating to me. Perhaps it would be wise to end this here. I feel I have explained my perspective adequately.
BTW, do we need this kind of sarcasm in discussions of spirituality and religion? ("And I am smilling broadly at the moment.")
As to the age of the universe, sue me; I missed correcting a typo. I agree that the universe is believed to be approximately 13 billion years old from theoretical time of the big bang. Of course we have nothing to deduce about the time or multiverse existences prior to that. So actually 13 + ? =
Posts: 2385
May 13 11 8:00 PM
That brat is your bud
True enough... You know Tigs, for some time, I did ponder the existence of God and tried to establish a quest to see if one could be found.This quest only ever left me with humankind, and brought me back to humanity.I cannot state for a fact that there is no God.I can only conclude, personally, as others do, there there probably is no God.This does not mean that there is no spirituality in me, just none that was prescribed for the masses.
May 13 11 8:05 PM
Specifically by placing a limit, infinity is disregarded. How many understand, for example, that 0.9999... = 1? Many see 0.9999... as getting ever closer to 1 without ever reaching it.This is false, and it can be proven false.1 divided by 3 = 1/3 or 0.3333...1/3 x 3 = 1.1/3 = 0.3333...so 0..3333.... x 3 = 3/3 = 1.hence 0.9999... = 1.In math, "infinity" is always made into a finite number to make equations workable.
0.9999... = 1?
1 divided by 3 = 1/3 or 0.3333...
In math, "infinity" is always made into a finite number to make equations workable.
May 13 11 8:07 PM
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